Transcript
Keep It Green - Episode 1: TurfTalents in America - European expertise, North American investment drive
This first Keep It Green podcast was recorded at TurfTech 2025 in Basel. Kris Vandekerckhove talks to Arno Harmsen (TurfTalents / GrasMeesters) about his journey from an internship in Canada to work and projects in Canada and the United States. Harmsen talks about his focus on natural grass, his outspoken aversion to plastic pitches, and how, with TurfTalents, he links European knowledge and partners with North American investment drive. The conversation will include World Cup stadiums, innovation in sports fields, water storage and circularity, and the differences between Europe and North America in knowledge sharing and field management.
[00:00:05,460] Intro and setting
Kris Vandekerckhove: Right, we're speaking here for the Keep It Green podcast at TurfTech25 in Basel. Speaking to, we might call it, up-and-coming talent. In different ways actually. Straight from the Netherlands, but based mainly in America. Yes right, here we are talking to Arno Harmsen of TurfTalents.
Arno Harmsen: True.
Kris Vandekerckhove: Is that so?
Arno Harmsen: Yes.
[00:00:36,700] First question on his story
Kris Vandekerckhove: What is your story Arno? I learnt that when you were eighteen in Canada you did an internship... What exactly was that?
Arno Harmsen: As a child, and I don't know why, I always wanted to go to Canada. I was doing horticultural training at the time and then I got the chance to go abroad. That was quite special back then. Nowadays not everybody does of course, but that was quite special back then. And I worked for a landscaping company in Ottawa. I fell in love with Canada. The space, the funzien, the people, the friendliness, the opportunities. So yes, always went back so to speak. Every two years actually.
[00:01:24,000] What kind of internship was it
Kris Vandekerckhove: So yes. You did an internship there, what exactly was that internship?
Arno Harmsen: It was for a landscaping company, so it was really gardening.
Kris Vandekerckhove: Gardening?
Arno Harmsen: Yes, gardens.
Kris Vandekerckhove: Yes, yes, yes, yes, gardens. Okay, yes.
[00:01:37,300] From gardens to North America
Kris Vandekerckhove: But that's a step of gardens, because now you're in North America. And those are different gardens that you do now. What are you doing now?
Arno Harmsen: Yes, right. In 2010, I started the company Grasmeesters. A consultancy for professional football clubs and amateur clubs. How they should build pitches, how they should maintain them. We do a bit of project management. Really focused on grass and natural grass, 100%. Everyone at the time also said, Arno, you're crazy. Yes, I just hate plastic pitches. Although they are necessary sometimes, but I saw the knowledge going away. I had to learn a lot myself. But I also did see the opportunities in the market and that's where I stepped in. And my grass estates, we are just incredibly successful at that.
[00:02:42,050] Team and focus in the Netherlands
Arno Harmsen: We do that together with Dave Muis, Martin Tundel, Hans Kok, a team together. Really focused on grass and hybrid pitches. And trying to improve the quality of Dutch pitches. And golf courses. And 100% independently.
Kris Vandekerckhove: And that knowledge that you have actually gained all these years you have taken with you, yes.
[00:03:09,330] Moving to Canada via LinkedIn contact
Kris Vandekerckhove: United States of America, yes yes. So what are you doing there?
Arno Harmsen: In 2019, I moved to Canada. Was someone on LinkedIn, David Wildeboer. I had that once, in about must years, 15 years ago I think. Who kept following me on LinkedIn and at one point sent a message of: we need someone like you in North America. I said, just a moment... So I said to my wife, I'm flying tomorrow, literally. And in the evening I called her: we're moving.
Kris Vandekerckhove: Yes.
Arno Harmsen: So that woman is still my wife.
Kris Vandekerckhove: Nice.
Arno Harmsen: Yes, absolutely. Yes, I won't leave that one either.
[00:04:05,000] Work permit and start in Canada
Arno Harmsen: And it had never occurred to me to move to Canada, but Dave was my... Who made sure I could get a work permit. Building a piece of beautiful canal fields in Canada, or building, but advising. I find that... obviously you have to get used to it a bit. The second year came corona. Seriously corona myself. That also took over a year, six months to recover from.
[00:04:50,390] Resistance and challenge in the market
Arno Harmsen: Yes, and they're not in Canada, where I have a lot of people in the industry in the Netherlands... They're really not waiting for Arno Harmsen to come and advise how to maintain one. So that was a challenge. Meanwhile, TurfTalents Company, a co-inventor of the concept. That was ready, looking at what are the possibilities. Then you soon end up in America, which is hooky. Americans are very keen to invest, to develop further. And I started to focus on that, which then resulted in the fact that we now have three...
[00:05:51,010] Three World Cup stadiums and first contact with FIFA expert
Kris Vandekerckhove: Three World Cup stadiums? I'd like to hear a bit more about that now too, of course, because...
Arno Harmsen: Yes, I can say that. I was at a congress in America, I remember, Salt Lake City. Speaking there was Dr John Swacken, he's from the University. And he had been hired by FIFA to make sure the best pitches for the World Cup. The challenge in America, because they are all plastic pitches, they are closed. Getting natural grass there. So that's quite a challenge. And I spoke to him for half a minute.
[00:06:43,790] Moving on and building cooperation
Arno Harmsen: Dr John Swakhanen, Trail Watchers from Michigan University, they work together. And I thought right away, good click. He's in Canadian, so he says yes, I don't have much. After that, the next few months, so then I got in the car. There were no good flights, so I drove 1,800 kilometres to speak to him for half a day.
Kris Vandekerckhove: What a story, what a story.
Arno Harmsen: Yes, well, those 1,800 kilometres.
[00:07:18,700] Innovations and deliveries to stadiums
Arno Harmsen: We have techniques and new innovations. And that has led to us building three stadiums now. So building, that we are allowed to supply our products in other contracting construction. The story in America, that's only from soccer then. Soccer, because that American football, that doesn't go anywhere with me. But that's really already up-and-coming.
[00:07:53,100] Budgets and level
Kris Vandekerckhove: You also have very big players from Europe then. We have to be serious, here they all are, the big ones. Those are all starting to play there.
Arno Harmsen: Yes, but you also have to imagine, in terms of money. That goes with Miami, which can already compete with the top of Europe.
Kris Vandekerckhove: In terms of budget?
Arno Harmsen: In terms of budget, yes.
Kris Vandekerckhove: If you are going to look at quality, no. No, but well yes, the very biggest of them are going to take some time from that and roll out between heels.
Arno Harmsen: Yes, right.
[00:08:43,539] TurfTalents and solutions (water storage and circularity)
Arno Harmsen: And now with TurfTalents, we are representing Stogger. DrainTalents: we do field for water storage. So we can really store millions of litres of water. So we are totally circular for football fields. But with Stogger, for example the lamps, yes that's insane. Really insane.
[00:08:59,690] Taking European companies to North America
Kris Vandekerckhove: So you then not only take your knowledge with you to America, but you also take the companies you are used to working with here and that you know deliver. Real Champions League level, you just take them all over there. So that is actually a new market. Allee, that is a relatively new market in that area, isn't it?
Arno Harmsen: Yes, definitely. And does start, look on a professional level there is a bit more knowable say. Only in Europe we do a lot of knowledge sharing, that's not in America. Everything is shielded and afraid of I don't know what. But yes, a lot of power also with the plastics industry.
[00:09:39,820] Focus on amateur and municipal level
Arno Harmsen: But at the amateur level or municipal level, I really am. That's what I do. And that's where it starts with, yes, there are other alternatives. And look at your maintenance programme. Look at what does it cost in the longer term to maintain a natural grass pitch? What does it cost in the longer term to maintain or replace a plastic pitch? What is the impact of that? So in that way say I'm doing. And that is really starting to loosen up.
Kris Vandekerckhove: To spin.
Arno Harmsen: Yes, that is starting to turn around.
[00:10:21,690] Long lead time and satisfaction
Kris Vandekerckhove: So that had a very long lead time. But at some point you knew that too. And that's fun. That's really fun. It will be. You've come a long way, haven't you.
Arno Harmsen: Yes.
Kris Vandekerckhove: You've come a long way. Yes, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful and beautiful story after all. A story of Dutch entrepreneurial spirit.
Arno Harmsen: Yes.
Kris Vandekerckhove: You may have that in common with the Americans themselves actually.
Arno Harmsen: Yes, I know. I have a nice one, and personally I think that's fantastic.
[00:10:59,520] Example: stadium in Vancouver and Dutch lines
Arno Harmsen: The stadium in Vancouver, that. The stadium belongs to the province, so everything had to be put out to tender. The contractor immigrated from the Netherlands in the late 1950s. That will build it, that won the tender. The stadium's supervisor, immigrated from Holland in the 1970s. The turf supplier, immigrated from the Netherlands 20 years ago. Myself with my companion. My companion is second-generation Dutch. Myself six years ago. Then we have DrainTalent as a Dutch product. Stogger as a Dutch product.
Kris Vandekerckhove: Lovely, lovely.
Arno Harmsen: And just independently.
Kris Vandekerckhove: Yes, just, and you come into that together.
[00:11:52,420] Excitement of each project
Kris Vandekerckhove: And you write a story there that there will be a lot of talk about it probably.
Arno Harmsen: I know, well I come from a positive way, it's always exciting I must. Every pitch is different, you're in different conditions. We're sitting there with one. Is also exciting. What I'm saying, every pitch that gets built is just exciting again. Despite the fact that you depend on so many factors.
[00:12:17,600] Climate, distance and emergency kits
Kris Vandekerckhove: And also the weather on the ground in America. That seems challenging in terms of weather too. In terms of climate and micro climate and I don't know what all. You then have Hurricane Alleys and I don't know what all.
Arno Harmsen: Yes, I myself live where I live in Canada. I live in the middle of nowhere. It's a 50-minute drive to buy groceries at the supermarket. When they talk about neighbours there, they just become 400 kilometres apart. Yes, and we have emergency packages for snowstorms. We now have an emergency package for forest fires, because it's summer with us. So it can be up to 80 degrees difference, but that still has its challenge.
[00:13:16,560] Sports culture and funding
Arno Harmsen: You well, for as an example, Canada is really a hockey country. That's the natural sport. Football, but still you want to get money for some money ball field. So almost. For a hockey stadium, which is many times more expensive. It's really a national sport. But yes, that is only down to the. And not only in terms of climate, but also.
[00:14:06,030] Differences in management and resources
Arno Harmsen: The knowledge, so to speak. The grounds managers know quite a lot in America. With Europe is huge poison cupboards. So for what helps against one is again bad for. It then also becomes resistant to anything and everything. Then it always needs a bit more and harder. So that's really different.
[00:14:31,840] Closing
Kris Vandekerckhove: Wonderful story. We will hear a lot more from you I think.
Arno Harmsen: I don't know. I do hope for one.
Kris Vandekerckhove: Please thank you. Super super super super thanks. Thanks for the interview, really.
Arno Harmsen: It was indeed delicious.
Kris Vandekerckhove: I heard a great story and we will, yes, we will do something with that of course. Thank you.
